Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
The Cubs have added three players to their MLB Reserve List (40-man roster), one day in advance of the November 20th deadline that requires MLB clubs to submit major league and minor league reserve lists to the MLB office. .
RHPs Mitch Atkins and Justin Berg were selected from Iowa, and RHP Marcos Mateo was selected from Daytona, and with the addition of the three, the Cubs now have 36 players on their MLB Reserve List.
Notably absent from the list are LHP Donald Veal (the Cubs 2005 2nd round pick) and 2B Nate Spears (acquired along with two other prospects from the Baltimore Orioles in January 2006 for OF Corey Patterson), meaning both will be eligible for selection in next month's Rule 5 Draft. And I would say that it's very likely that Veal will get selected, and somewhat likely that Spears will be, too.
A North Carolina native, Atkins checks in at 6'3/220, and he just turned 23 last month. He was the Cubs 7th round selection in the 2004 Rule 4 Draft (1st Year Player Draft) out of Northeast Guilford HS in McLeansville, NC (he was signed by legendary Cubs Area Scout Billy Swoope), and he had signed an NLI to attend Elon University before opting to sign with the Cubs. Atkins has progressed steadily through the Cubs system over the past five seasons, reaching AAA Iowa via a mid-season promotion in 2008. He went 17-7 with a combined 4.00 ERA and 1.25 WHIP, allowing 155 H, 87 R (73 ER), 50/132 BB/K, and 25 HR in 164.1 IP (28 GS) with AA Tennessee and AAA Iowa in 2008. Atkins doesn't throw particularly hard, but he really "knows how to pitch." He has a full array of pitches, including a very effective cutter. He probably projects as a "back-of-the-rotation" MLB starter at this point.
The 24-year old Berg is a native of Antigo, WI, and was acquired by the Cubs from the Yankees in August 2005 in exchange for veteran OF Matt Lawton. A 6'3 230-pound sinker-baller, Berg was originally drafted by the Yankees in the 43rd round of the 2003 Rule 4 Draft out of Indian Hills CC in Iowa, but was signed as a "Draft & Follow" in May 2004 (just days prior to the June Draft) after spending his sophomore year at Triton CC in River Grove, IL. He was set to transfer to the University of Iowa for his junior year before opting to turn pro. The fact that the Cubs acquired Berg in a trade just a year after he signed with the Yankees probably is an indication that the Cubs had planned to draft him back in 2004 if he hadn't signed as a "DNF" with the Yanks. Berg has similar stuff as Jeff Samardzija (power sinker and slider), but has struggled mightily with his command throughout most of his career. Like Atkins, Berg split the 2008 sesaon between AA and AAA, and he was supposed to pitch for the Mesa Solar Sox of the Arizona Fall League post-2008 (he pitched in the AFL last year, too), but plans were changed at the last minute, and he ended up in the Venezuelan Winter League instead. Basically a "two-pitch pitcher," Berg will probably be moved to the bullpen in the near future to take full advantage of his hard stuff. He really needs to work on his command, but if he can get that straightened out (as Samardzija appears to have done), he could possibly make it to the big leagues as a reliever.
Marcos Mateo is the cousin of ex-Cubs RHP Juan Mateo. A native of the Dominican Republic, the 6'1 ,160-pound Marcos Mateo was acquired from Cincinnati in September 2007 as the PTBNL in an earlier deal where the Cubs sent OF Buck Coats to the Reds, so 2008 was his first season in the Cubs organization (he did pitch in the AZ Instructional League with the Cubs post-2007, however). He will turn 25 next April. Like his older cousin, Marcos Mateo's best pitch is an outstanding slider, but he also has a fastball with some life on it, and he supposedly developed a change-up in 2008 when he was moved to the starting rotation after a promotion from Peoria to Daytona. But unless the change-up is of big league quality, his future is probably MLB middle-relief.
#1 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Atkins and Berg really dont surprize me, but Mateo sure does!
__________________________hagsag
#2 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I dont get why Veal was left off, I mean he is wild but so is Berg. I mean LHP who throw hard just dont grow on trees and Veal good as gone now as he will be a top pick and I am sure he could last as a 12th man on the staff of a lousy club anyway. Can Veal still be added tomorrow in case Jimbo and Company forgot he needed to be added or is this the final list?
#3 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Why would they leave 4 open spots? They certainly aren't going to sign 4 free agents. This doesn't make sense to me unless the are going to add a few tomorrow. I agree about Veal, they should add him.
__________________________TJ
#4 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
#5 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Have to agree here. You would need a team that is really punting the season to have Veal drafted. The way he's pitched lately it's in doubt whether he'd be able to finish innings. Maybe if a team is OK bringing him in when they need to walk a guy and don't want to hurt their starter's stats.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#12 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
So a team like the Nats or Pirates will be a 92 loss team instead of a 90 loss team. Veal's stuff is good enough that a bad team in need of young pitching will keep him on as the 12th guy on their staff.
#6 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Submitted by The Real Neal on Wed, 11/19/2008 - 3:55pm.
Have to agree here.
You would need a team that is really punting the season to have Veal drafted.
===============================
REAL NEAL: I won't say which team (although you can probably figure out which one it is because it's practically self-evident), but a scout from another organization told me not too long ago that he LOVES Donald Veal despite his struggles (because the scout thinks Veal has the best "pure stuff" in the Cubs organization), and so I fully expect Veal to get selected in the Rule 5 Draft.
Of course that doen't mean he will be able to stick in MLB for a full season, but I will predict that it's VERY likely that he will get selected in the Rule 5 Draft.
#7 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I can see your scout owing his GM $32K next June.
Even if he loves his arm, it's just the fact that he's likely to be totally useless which I think will scare teams off. Unles they want him to pinch run. But I wouldn't be surprised if he gets drafted. I'd be really surprised if he gets drafted and doesn't get offered back to us - unless he breaks his leg or something.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#9 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
32K...most scouts wish they made that much money.
that said, playing the rule-5-shuffle don't mean anything until late march when it's time to set the rosters full time and you know if the guy is gone or not.
#11 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
KC? I could see a club like that stashing Veal in the pen this year considering they trotted out Jimmy Gobble for 39 games with that sparkling 8.81 ERA and 1.96 WHIP. Plus they've now traded away 2 of their 2008 relievers in Leo Nunez and Ramon Ramirez so they'll have room. It sucks potentially seeing a great arm like that go but I mean even if he becomes the next Renyel Pinto, that's not going to kill the Cubs.
#15 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
The Cubs have had a few pitchers over the last few years taken in the Rule V draft (seems like 1-2 every year). The only one we've lost that I can think of is Andy Sisco and the reasons he was let go had very little to do with his pitching ability.
Veal very well might be taken, but sticking on a roster all year is going to be tough. Most guys don't make it out of spring training.
#8 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
video on Cubs' AFL prospects, nifty
http://www.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=20081118367...
took her about 10 words to get curse in though
#10 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
#13 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
If they think the scouting department is OK but question player development, does that mean they question teaching methods?
Sorry if it sounds self-evident, but I've often wondered why some organizations churn out body after body at the big-league level but the Cubs' "can't-miss" prospects often do nothing but that.
__________________________The Todd Zeile of Internet handles.
#16 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I'd actually argue that the Cubs are one of the top pitching development teams out there. Injuries aside it's pretty rare that our pitchers don't pan out. Position players though... I think that's a combination of bad scouting and bad coaching. Too many athletes and not enough ball players, ever since I've been a Cubs fan... Well the Palmeiro pick was good.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#41 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Bobby Brownlie
Chadd Blasko
Matt Clanton
Luke Haggarty
Grant Johnson
and
Mark Pawelek
All wish to argue your point
__________________________Rooting for Laundry since 1987
#57 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
All of those guys were injured, other than Pawelek, correct?
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#69 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
If these injuries are due to (1) overuse or (2) failure to correct mechanical flaws in pitching motions, then it's a player development failure. Steve Stone has argued that more pitchers develop injuries in the Cubs minor league system than in other systems. Whether that's really true or he's just speaking anecdotally, I don't know. But it sure seems like the Cubs lose a lot of promising pitchers to injury.
#47 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I don't think Michael Wuertz has panned out, although I think that's mostly on Rothschild.
Rich Hill came to the majors without any ability to hold a runner on a base. When people started running wild him, they (LR and I-don't-know-who-else) started mucking with his delivery, teaching him to slide-step, etc. The result is the Rich Hill we see today.
Zambrano has been taking one step forward, one step back for eight years. And he's a big talent.
Dempster, Lilly, Harden--they don't owe anything to Cub coaching.
Marmol is a success story, so far. Similarly Samardzija and Marshall, to an extent.
__________________________Tired of OBP? Join the club!
#58 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
And Wood and Prior and Nolasco and Pinto and Atkins and Gallagher and Ohman, and probably half a dozen other guys I can't remember of the top of my head - Cruz.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#85 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
You're right about a few of these guys. Also Blevins--he was in the Cubs' system when he seemed to figure it out in '07. Now he's in the majors. Pinto was the Cubs' minors pitcher of the year one year, so he must have made some progress under them.
Looking at Nolasco with the Cubs, he was 14-3 in 2005, so he didn't need Fla. coaching to pitch well.
Okay, my beef is with Rothschild, then. How did Ohman (and the guys I mentioned in #47) do under Rothschild?
__________________________Tired of OBP? Join the club!
#14 ownership bonership...lol...boner...
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8818952/MLB-say...
"Major League Baseball says the deadline to submit bids to buy the Chicago Cubs is Dec. 1."
#17 wut?
has this guy checked to see where his team's postseason revenue has come from recently?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8817470/Oakland...
"NEW YORK (AP) - Lew Wolff has a way to shorten baseball's postseason: Make the first round best-of-one.
"I'd make it one-game-and-you're-out for the first series," the Oakland Athletics owner said Wednesday. "It would be exciting. It would be great.""
#18 Re: wut?
#19 Re: wut?
i just hope he was handling that question as a "fan" and not a "business man."
either way there's around a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of it happening.
#20 Mike Mussina
retires...
HOFer?
#21 Re: Mike Mussina
without a Cy Young or 300 wins, I doubt it....surprised to see that last year was his first 20-win season. Did have 17 straight seasons with double digit wins.
anyone notice Maddux's 20-year streak ended last season?
#22 Re: Mike Mussina
start looking at stats and it opens up a whole can of worms...
Maddux hasn't received a Cy Young vote since 2000, somehow in 2002 with a 16-6 record and a 2.62 ERA, he didn't get one. His 159 ERA+ was 2nd best in the NL.
#26 Re: Mike Mussina
Tim Kurkjian thinks he is based on his career W%-.638, 117 games over .500, 2800 Ks, pitched his entire career with the DH in the AL EAST and in the steroid era. I think he noted that every SP who has 100 more wins than losses in his career is either in the HOF or hasn't become eligible yet. Clemens, Pedro, Glavine, Johnson. Personally if Blyleven isn't in than Moose shouldn't be either. He really should have pitched one more year. He'd likely pick up at least 15 wins taking him to 285 and he'd almost assuredly get in then. Not to mention one last shot at a ring. His postseason numbers were solid outside of the W-L, 7-9, but had a 3.42 ERA, 145 Ks in 139 IP.
#40 Re: Mike Mussina
Mussina is a Yankee so that should help his case. Other than Munson (who should be in the hall) has there ever been a borderline HOF Yankee who hasnt gotten in? I guess Maris, but 2 great seasons in an other wise average at best career should not you into the hall. Had those 2 great years been for the Royals, I wonder if people would be making a HOF case for him. Hell Mussina is more worthy than Rizzuto. I doubt Mussina even cares about it because one more year would have made him a lock. He could have been at 9500Ks and and atleast 12 wins to his record and be atleast 120 games over .500 for his career.
#102 Re: Mike Mussina
I'd argue he had 3 great seasons from 1960 -1962: Avg/HR/RBI for those seasons -- .283/39/112, .269/61/142 & .256/33/100. Otherwise, his three highest HR totals were 28, 26 & 23 (in '58, '63 & '64) and three highest RBI totals were 80, 72 & 71 (in '58, '59 & '64) in 12 seasons. Otherwise, he failed to top 16 HR and 55 RBI in his other six seasons. Not a HOF career, in my opinion. The only question left is whether 1961 qualified as a HOF season by itself. I think not.
__________________________JoePepitone
#23 VineLine Blog
didn't know this existed
http://vineline.mlblogs.com/
doesn't read like Muskat's writing...
#24 Re: VineLine Blog
reads a little disjointed if you're not a regular or not used to it...very casual name dropping had me lost...
"I talked to Mark on the day of the division clinch and asked him, as he was dripping head-to-toe with champagne, what fueled him for this season."
...for instance...that's the first line of the story. i guess we're supposed to assume we know they're on a first name basis with players rather than mark being their obsessed fan friend at home ruining his carpet.
good stuff, though.
#25 Re: VineLine Blog
#43 Re: VineLine Blog
Mike Huang, for what it's worth.
As far as the "Mark" thing Crunch talks about, my guess is that Huang left off "DeRosa" in haste. I don't think any other posts are as informal when talking about the players.
__________________________Voting for non-Americans since 2008.
#27 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
AZ Phil,
The way I read Veal being left off the 40-man is the Cubs either (A) don't feel Veal will be good enough to make anyone's 25 man roster on Opening Day and/or (b) has no significant trade value by himself or as part of a package (e.g. Brian Roberts). Do you agree?
Also, from your top 15 list is there anyone with significant trade value except Vitters? Aren't Cashner, Jackson, McDaniel ineligible to be traded until after this year's June draft?
__________________________Does the deal get us closer to a World Championship?
#54 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
[edit: I intended this as a reply to Q-Ball, #28.]
I don't know about you but I'm impressed by Jake Fox hitting .423 and slugging .676 while batting cleanup for Licey. That league is not chopped liver. Felix Pie goes there every winter and hits .220, just like in the majors. A couple of his teammates last year were Miguel Cabrera and Marmol.
The Cubs have needed a righty hitter with some power off the bench. Why not Fox? He can play first and a little outfield and he's also a third-string catcher, which frees up the second-string catcher to pinch hit--so you get two pinch hitters for the price of one.
Fuld has quietly raised his average to .304 (.398 OPB) while batting leadoff for Aragua, Rich Hill's team (maybe soon-to-be former team) in Venezuela. Fuld might actually be better in the number-two slot for the Cubs than Fukudome, who has been tried there. Also, Fuld is cheap talent. This may be me, but I don't think a GM can get away with paying big bucks to four outfielders, when there are only three positions. The accountants will catch that.
Exposing Veal is a risk, but my guess would be that Fuld has a better chance of being drafted and actually sticking with another team.
__________________________Tired of OBP? Join the club!
#28 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
AZ Phil, what does leaving off Veal say about Jake Fox and Sam Fuld? I think both of them are "fringy" at best, and very easily missed if someone took a Rule-5 flyer. Why wouldn't the Cubs just DFA one of those two, and add Veal to the 40-man? Is there something I am missing?
#29 Burnett and Lowe
Burnett wants 5 years, Lowe $16M...Dempster deal already looks good.
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/...
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/...
Burnett's been a bit more consistent than Dempster obviously, but his elbow is a clicking time bomb.
#30 Re: Burnett and Lowe
Ah, the good old 'clicking time bomb'. What's that again?
__________________________† The Joe - 2007 TCR Keeper Champion; 2008 Runner-Up
#31 Re: Burnett and Lowe
It's a mouse with a explosive device in it.
Burnett has never had a year as good as the one Dempster just finished.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#32 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
When the hell does the spring training schedule drop?
__________________________The Todd Zeile of Internet handles.
#35 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Indeed.
O. Julius to Mrs. Julius: I think it's time for us to start thinking about taking a visit to Phoenix to see your parents, don't you? How about March?
#33 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Perhaps Veal and Spears might be needed in a trade before the Rule 5 draft? If that's the case, leaving them off the list allows for a deal involving them to be done soon, rather than with Atkins, Berg, or Mateo.
From AZ Phil's article a few days ago:
Any player on a minor league reserve list on November 20th is considered "frozen" on that roster until the conclusion of the Rule 5 Draft, meaning all players on minor league reserve lists as of 11/20 cannot be traded to another organization or moved to a different reserve list in the same organization during that period of time. Players on an MLB 40-man roster can be outrighted to the minors during this period, however.
#89 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
AZ Phil can clarify this, but reading the italicized section in Andrew's post, I would say the "minor league reserve list" is the minor-league full roster, which would mean that Spears and Veal are frozen and can't be traded before the draft; and that Atkins, Berg and Mateo can be traded, like anyone else on the major-league 40-man (unless they have an NTC!).
__________________________Tired of OBP? Join the club!
#34 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Trevor Miller in STL for a physical.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=371460...
__________________________The Todd Zeile of Internet handles.
#36 Cubs Sale heating up
According to WGN, final 4 bidders have until 12/1 to get in bids.
Cuban, reportedly, is not one.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#37 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I respectfully disagree on Mussina, Rob.
Saying without 300 wins or a Cy Young a pitcher doesn't deserve to get in is kinda like saying "Well...without 3000 hits or 500 HR's, player X doesn't get in."
270 wins, 2800 K's, an ERA+ of 123. He top comparisons from Baseball Reference include Juan Mariscal, David Wells, Curt Schilling, Jim Palmer, Carl Hubbell, and Jack Morris.
Is it his fault he pitched in a league with Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, etc?
#38 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I have never been a fan of HOF guys were were good for a very long time, but never great. Don Sutton comes to mind. Mark Grace, perhaps.
#39 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Craig Biggio
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#42 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Precisely. Biggio was never thought of as one of the top players in the game, which is what the HOF is all about. But, he was good for a long time, reached a milestone, and will probably get in.
Bah. HOF should recognize greatness, not goodness.
#44 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I don't care about any of that, but that's what the voters do...
his only really strong arguments are playing in the AL East his entire career and an extremely good win percentage. But he's going to have a hard time getting in if Blyleven can't get in, imo.
I'm not sure where I stand to be honest.
#45 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Does anyone think he gets helped by winning 20 in his last career season? Five years from now he might score points for "going out on top". Baseball Writers tend to eat that crap up.
__________________________Rooting for Laundry since 1987
#46 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Think along the lines of Barry Sanders in Football.
__________________________Rooting for Laundry since 1987
#48 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Here's the thing I can't remember any time thinking he was one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball in any given year. Same as Biggio for players.
Barry Sanders was considered the top running back of his time, even when he was in the league with the eventual all time rushing leader.
Bad comparsion.
The thing that will help Mussina will be NY press, if they love him enough he will get in, although not winning a WS will not help.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#70 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Barry Sanders, to any who watched him, is unquestionably one of the 3 best RB and probably 10 best football players in the entire history of the sport (fyi Jim Brown, Walter Payton).
Mussina was very good for a very long time, but I don't think anyone's going to say he's one of the 3 best at his position anytime soon. Robert Smith would be a much, much better football comparison, if we're talking about going out on top (career wasn't nearly as long-lived). That being said, I'd probably lean towards yes for Mussina on the HOF.
Completely off topic, anyone else ever hear this Barry Sanders story? His terrible defense somehow managed to get an interception, and Sanders wasn't expecting this, obviously, as he was asleep on the sidelines. Brett Perriman walks over and wakes him up, says hey dude we have the ball, Sanders gets up groggy, eyes red, puts his helmet on and runs on field. Sweep right, 60+ yard TD. Walks back to bench, goes back to sleep. I have no idea where I heard this except it was on TV at some point, so take it with a grain of salt maybe, but the fact that I'm not convinced it didn't happen shows how good that guy was.
__________________________Quit arguing about non-baseball stuff yall.
#71 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
#74 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Where did Robert Smith go to college?
:-)
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#105 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Oddly I didn't pick him solely based on that - he was the first guy to come to mind.
Not that I mind :D
__________________________Quit arguing about non-baseball stuff yall.
#81 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Giving the ball to Barry Sanders was like throwing a bomb down field on every play.
Most times it will go incomplete but the times that it works, scores 6 and looks great in the stats.
Sanders was the opposite of what I would ever want in a running back. I want a guy that i can give the ball to that you know will give you 4 yards a pop. While Sanders stats may average out to that, it merely shows the flaw in averages.
When you run 30 times for 150 yards and 2 TDs, it looks great. But when you take out the 75 yard run and you ran 29 times for 75 yards, not that great.
Give me Emmitt Smith every time over Sanders.
__________________________"I will ruin this house with my anger!" - Master Shake
#90 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Okay I will step into this bee-hive-
What if Sanders had Smith's line and QB?
I believed he had to run the way he did because of the offensive team he was anchored to.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#92 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
"Here Emmitt -- take the ball and run through that gaping hole that our All Pro offensive line opened up for you, while the linebackers and safeties worry about our All Pro QB throwing to Irvin and Harper. Enjoy your 5-yard gain."
"Here Barry -- take the ball and don't worry about the fact that the entire defense is monitoring your every move, that there are already 2 defensive lineman in our backfield, and that they have at least 8 men in the box on every play."
Sheesh.
#93 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
#117 Cmon Rob
He sure wasn't a Rodney Peete or Andre Ware.
__________________________Rooting for Laundry since 1987
#94 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
i hear the same BS every time. Except that is how Barry Sanders always ran his entire career. Even back in college.
They guy is/was a phenomenal athlete. He had blazing speed, ridiculous quicks and fantastic vision. But he was undisciplined as hell and was always going for the home run kill shot. he was never happy with a 4 yard run. He was happier taking a run for a loss.
If i had a way to look it up, i would. But he didn't make first downs. He didn't control the clock and forced more 3 and outs with his style of play.
__________________________"I will ruin this house with my anger!" - Master Shake
#95 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Walter had to do some of those zig zag runs early in his career because of Rebie Sorie and Noah Jackson falling on there fat asses.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#98 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I think both camps are correct.
Had Barry played for the Cowboys, he would have run for more yards, eniticed by those huge holes that Smith was able to take advantage of.
He would have also continued to turn a lot of 1 yard losses into 4 yard losses, with the occasional big gain in there.
I think we can all agree Smith is probably the most overrated player in NFL history.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#107 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Chad, your version of Barry Sanders sounds like the football version of Alfonso Soriano.
#99 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Just so you know how totally untrue this whole post is...
Barry Sanders only had fifteen 50yd (and you are saying 75yd TD runs) touchdown runs in his career, but had 25 career 150yd games.
Just so you know...
Emmitt Smith wasn't in the same category as Barry Sanders. He said it himself.
#100 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
barry sanders is 3 times the athlete that smith was. But Sanders was a home run hitter.
And I would like to see how many first downs Barry made vs. other players. If you know where I can find those stats, please let me know.
__________________________"I will ruin this house with my anger!" - Master Shake
#101 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Who gives a fuck about Barry Sanders?!
__________________________† The Joe - 2007 TCR Keeper Champion; 2008 Runner-Up
#106 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
You can find those stats for Sanders here: http://www.nfl.com/players/barrysanders/careerstat...
Sanders gained a 1st down on 18.7% of his runs compared to Emmitt's 21.8%. Despite having 1,500 less rushing attempts, Sanders still had more 20+ yard runs (113-94) and 40+ yard runs (42-17!). It should also be noted that they didn't keep those stats for Sanders' first two years and Smith's first year in the league, so the difference is greater. Sanders also only fumbled 19 time compared to Smith's 38. Also, Sanders only had one 75-yard run in his career.
Also, just doing some quick math estimates. If you were to subtract the long runs of Sanders (20+) from his overall stats, his average per carry would be a bit over 4 yards, just as Smiths. So the difference in the yards per carry between the two is Sanders' homeruns, but minus that, his average per rush is still as good as Emmitt's.
#108 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
and one key stat i doubt i will every be able to find is carries for loss. I once heard that he had as many carries for loss as he did gains. that could be bs.
__________________________"I will ruin this house with my anger!" - Master Shake
#114 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Yeah, that's BS - you don't need to look it up.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#120 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Despite having 1,500 less rushing attempts
Fewer rushing attempts . . . . (Sorry.)
#123 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I don't copy edit my comments. Feel free to do so for me though.
#124 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
"Feel free to do so for me, though."
__________________________The Todd Zeile of Internet handles.
#128 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
"I don't copyedit my comments."
#135 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Go fuck yourselves.
#136 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
^No edit needed.
__________________________The Todd Zeile of Internet handles.
#138 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Go fuck your elves?
__________________________"Enjoy every sandwich." -Warren Zevon
#142 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
That ^ (comments 123-124, 128, 135-136 & 138) was damn funny!
__________________________JoePepitone
#49 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I totally disagree about Biggio, he was the top 2nd baseman in the game for a long period of time. You wanted a little power with your stolen bases at a notoriously weak position, he was your man. Him in Roberto Alomar were the best of the best.
His overall stats easily make him one of the all-time greats at the position.
I really don't understand why Cubs fans got to knock the accomplishments of rival teams great players. He was a great player and he is more than deserving to be a HOFer, 1st ballot even.
#51 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
It has nothing to do with him being an Astro, on my part.
He batted over .300 4 times in 20 year period, was not a MVP threat and would say he was considered second best player on team for most of his career (Bagwell, Berkman).
He's a very good player, but not HOF IMO, but he will get in.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#52 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
He was in the top 5 in the MVP voting twice and top 10 three times. During Biggio's career only 1 2B won the MVP award (Kent in 2000.) So what your saying is the only 2B who should be in the hall that played from 88-07 are Kent and Sandberg since they have MVP awards.
#56 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
#61 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
The problem in my mind with Biggio and Bagwell is the same problem with Sosa and McGwire. A lot of it is going to come down to how many writers are confident they were juicing.
I would say there were seasons when Mussina was considered one of the game's top 3 pitchers. Definetly one of the AL's top three pitchers. You can't punish these guys too much for having played in the same era as Maddux, Johnson and Martinez.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#76 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
agreed. I'd bet my car that Bagwell was using PEDs, and since Bagwell and Biggio were so tight there is a little doubt on Biggio but his numbers alone are certainly hall worthy. In his prime he posted 4 .400+ OBP years. He was an elite leadoff hitter for 11 years.
#118 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I always thought the same thing about Bagwell. I got totally flamed by John Sickels for stating as much a couple years ago. Who else can you think of that went from 15-18-20 Homers a year to a perennial 40ish guy without some sort of major speculation?
__________________________Rooting for Laundry since 1987
#121 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Or in Biggio's case 40 XBH's per year to 70 XBH's per year. Biggio's power surge started in 1993 at the age of 27. Bagwell's 1994 at 26. Tenron didn't open until 2000.
__________________________Livin' just a little, laughin' just a little, ain't easy.
#50 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
The New York Post is speculating that David Dejesus will be shopped, now that the Royals have Coco Crisp. I wonder what they will want for him....
#53 Dempster
Check out this article about a friend of mine who's son has optic nerve hypoplasia and is going to China for stem cell therapy. Ryan Dempster and his wife made an unsolicited and unexpected donation to help them make the trip. I don't know what his ERA+ will be in 2012, but the guy is definitely a class act.
http://tinyurl.com/6x7kuc
__________________________"Enjoy every sandwich." -Warren Zevon
#55 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Biggio has better overall numbers than Sandberg. So by your logic if you play for a shitty organization that doesn't develop or sign any good talent (ala the Cubs for much of its existence) your a more qualified HOFer than a player who played with an organization that had a clue?
I am sorry that has always been one of the least defenseable arguements people try to use around this site and many others.
The fact is it doesn't make Biggio less deserving if he had Bagwell and Berkman around him. He just had a better organiztion to play for, and it still doesn't erase his over-all stats at the position and how he ranks with the all-time greats.
You go to baseball-reference.com and it shows the players with stats comparable to Biggio. Here is the list....
Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Joe Morgan, Cal Ripkin, Roberto Alomar, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Lou Whitaker, Ivan Rodriguez, Ryne Sandberg.
But hey when you got better over-all numbers than guys like Joe Morgan and Ryne Sandberg there really isn't a question about his HOF creds.
#88 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Having more closely examined the stats, I have changed my mind -- Biggiois a HOF-er.
I was probably distracted by the recent memory of his hitting under .270 for 6 of his last 8 years. That ain't HOF material, in any league.
#59 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/2008/11/nov-20...
Utley out 4-6 months...
#82 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
So who plays 2nd for the USA in the WBC?
#83 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Pedroia, Kinsler, Roberts, Phillips, Uggla ...pick one.
speaking of the WBC...
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081119&content_id=3685538&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
piece on the Puerto Rican team...says Soto is unsure if Cubs will let him play.
#97 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
It wont be Kinsler, MLB has already said it wont get insurance for anyone who ended last season on the DL.
#84 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Dan Uggla is American, right?
__________________________"I will ruin this house with my anger!" - Master Shake
#87 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Uggla does well in these spotlit exhibition games.
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#60 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
Biggio is a HOF'er, he was a great player for a long time. That's the definition of Hall of Famer.
However, I see Mike C still can't have an adult discussion and instead turns to insults when someone disagrees with him. How old are you, Mike? Do you still want to tell me how great Fukudome is?
#62 Re: Cubs Add Three to 40-man Roster
I didn't take it as an insult.
In fact it's one of the most articulate arguements I've seen on this board, recently.
We just disagree.
__________________________I hate to advocat